CRF450X Starting Issues
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:53 pm

    Putting in the new plug did not allow it to start (using only 1 TBSP of fuel into the spark plug). I would have gone farther - but the battery decided it needed to charge. My plan is tomorrow to put on a tank and try it again. If this doesn't work - I shall check the valves (I haven't done it up to this point as it was easier for me to do other things first, and I like to check simple stuff first).

    Jim,

    I don't see any signs of orange discoloration on the plug. The best I can describe it as is a dirtish brown/black. Maybe the picture causes discoloration issues?
    Yea , it looks orange to us in the picture , we all kind of thought orange , so water/rust

    Definitely check the valves , they are notorious for starting issues when all else looks good , but as far as your old plug , either way , it was not meant for the bike , and would contribute to issues , so its best it was replaced weather it fixed the issue or not
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:56 pm

    So...

    I put on a new filter (the other one was dirty - so why not), new spark plug, fuel tank wouldn't fire. Great. Tore off the tank and removed the top cover... and I see what is pictured below. How bad is my engine screwed up?

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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:15 pm

    Ouch ! :shock: , that looks to me like Needles from Needle Bearings that got VERY hot , question is , what bearing cut loose , check cam bearings closely , with them all up top like that , i am guessing its coming from up there , the only other way for them to migrate up top would be getting caught in the timing chain and brought up from below

    Unfortunately , this is going to require a COMPLETE inspection , of every inch of the engine (engine side only , it should not be from the transmission or from the clutch side of case as that is separate , so any shrapnel "should" be from the engine/ignition side .....hopefully ..... , so the Ignition cover needs to come off , as does cam tower to inspect the cam bearings ... I feel bad for you , this is not a fun thing , post your progress , and ANY questions you have , just ask and we will TRY to figure it out with you ..... 8-[
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Aussiecrf230 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:14 am

    If they're from cam bearings that would upset the valve clearances, but aren't they roller ball bearings on the cam?

    Are you thinking rocker arm bearings, I think they're needles.
    How does the engine oil look and smell?
    How do the cam lobes look.
    Could it be a oil pump fail or blockage to the top end only.

    Thought it was a shattered valve spring to start with on my phone.
    Jim,
    Does under the cam cover normally look this devoid of oil?
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
  • OneWound
    Posts: 28
    Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:30 am

    So I've struggled my way through replacing piston rings once on a SV650 (with lots of help)... so how far am I going down the rabbit hole? For now, I'm assuming I'll be looking at/inspecting the top end (nothing past the cams)?
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:17 am

    If they're from cam bearings that would upset the valve clearances, but aren't they roller ball bearings on the cam?

    Are you thinking rocker arm bearings, I think they're needles.
    How does the engine oil look and smell?
    How do the cam lobes look.
    Could it be a oil pump fail or blockage to the top end only.

    Thought it was a shattered valve spring to start with on my phone.
    Jim,
    Does under the cam cover normally look this devoid of oil?
    Ray , the cam bearings are ball ,and yes the rocker bearings are the rollers , but what concerns me , in having him check the cam bearings is the fact that what i see there is broken into pieces , so if any of it went into the cam bearings which are open and exposed because they do not have the seal like a outer bearing would have , so any debris could be in those bearings and i want him to closely inspect them for any debris , if there is even a trace of material , then the cam bearings should be replaced , since all this stuff "seems" to be in the top end , I am assuming its related to the tower , as the only way i can see large pieces like that getting to the top end would be via the timing chain which i feel doubtful , but if there is that much debris visible , then how much went into the bottom end ?? , so that is why i said a inspection of inside the ignition cover is necessary , if debris is found there , then he will have no choice but to split the cases and check the crank bearings as well

    I am trying to lead him step by step , to avoid missing something , since he seems hesitant to delve deep into the engine , so i figure if he does this in steps , it might not be as intimidating to him , as we should be able to walk him thru each step when/if it needs to go further into a complete teardown , which with even meager mechanical knowledge , he should be able to accomplish with a Manual and some outside guidance

    And yes the top of the head does look a bit dry , it "should" have a coating of oil on everything , which is also concerning , and why i was concerned about the cam bearings , if the oiling was compromised to the cam and bearings , its going to lead to many components needing replaced , and when he removes the ignition cover he should be able to see any debris in the oil pump pickup , so I was just trying to keep it simple , as not to intimidate or overwhelm him with procedures all at once ,to have him look at something , then move to next area , would be less intimidating than to tell him to just tear into it blindly without ever having done this before and not knowing what to look for or what would look "normal" , with us , its not a big deal , to someone just learning about these engines , it can be a bit overwhelming , so I was just trying to ease him into this with a basic inspection , then depending on what is found , going from there
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:39 am

    So I've struggled my way through replacing piston rings once on a SV650 (with lots of help)... so how far am I going down the rabbit hole? For now, I'm assuming I'll be looking at/inspecting the top end (nothing past the cams)?
    This is what is great about this site , we have all been thru this before to some degree , and when you become concerned or unsure , we are here to help guide you forward as far as you feel comfortable , you only need to go as far as you feel comfortable with this , if its too much to handle , then (after at least trying to get a idea what is wrong) you can pass it on to a shop or a friend with more knowledge , you would be surprised at what you can do and how basic it is once you actually do something , then see that it was not as bad as you thought , or if its more than your still comfortable with , then pass it on to someone you trust will do a good job at a fair price , no one will force you to do something you are not confident in , that part is entirely up to you and your confidence and of course , your budget , all we are here to do is help guide you thru the basic inspection , to evaluate what is going on here , then its up to you how to proceed , but the inspection will give you a knowledge of what is needed to proceed , and then you know more of what your getting into as far as damage ,cost , etc. , weather you do the completing of the work or not , and without your input by looking at these things , we can't help with a diagnosis or helping you with what to do next , because we are not looking at it first hand , all we see or know is what you show or tell us YOU see

    And yes and no , for now , you are just inspecting to determine the possible origin of the pieces and the damage they may have caused before you found them , but it will be a little more than just the cams by also inspecting inside the ignition cover , you will not need special tools for this , just a good eye ...... for us , we would all likely tear the entire engine down after finding anything like what you have going on there , and inspect every single part , to ensure there is not any leftover debris that could potentially cause more damage down the road , or has caused damage already that would not be noticed without a complete teardown , and replacing those parts now rather than after you get it back together and then it breaks again due to unseen damage that was not discovered due to not looking into it further 8-[
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:10 am

    Jim,

    I do plan on fixing this motorcycle myself (as more of a pride thing). Just so I don't leave you/this forum hanging, it may be until Monday (10/15/2018) before I am able to start tearing this apart farther. I wasn't expecting to have this major of issues :D
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm

    So before I tore apart the engine, I decided to check/verify valve clearance before tearing it down. When doing so.. I noticed the following: The exhaust rocker arm always seemed to be "free" regardless of how many rotations I turned the engine. (This is referencing the fact that when checking valves on a CRF450X, when you line up the dots one time the exhaust rocker arm shall be tight, and when you go another rotation is shall be free).

    While I was doing this, I also noticed a missing chunk on the center valve lifter. It also seemed as there was some wear (to the untrained eye, it looks like the casting had some air bubbles in it) on the 2 outer valve lifters.



    EDIT: I checked the valves with the lobes facing towards the rear of the motorcycle. The left/right valves are defined as I am facing towards the front tire of the motorycle.

    Left Valve Lifter: .006
    Right Valve Lifter: .005
    Left Exhaust Valve: .017
    Right Exhaust Valve: .016
    Decompressor Clearance: .014

    Please note that the cam in this bike is not factory. From what I'm told, its from an '02-'03 450R. I do have the original cam, but IDK how good of condition it's in. It's been sitting in a box for about a year.
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:28 pm

    I've taken out the cams and I don't see anything too alarming. I'm probably going to a closer inspection - but here are the pictures so far. I did find another piece that has fallen out of something..

    EDIT: I believe I may have found some issues. See the second imgur link. I also found one roller bearings or whatever you want to call it inside of the "spinny thing with the flat" (I do not know the technical name for it).



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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:20 pm

    That is not looking good , its looking to me like there is a oiling issue up top , things probably ran a bit dry by the looks of it , you need to take off the ignition cover and look at the oil pump pickup and at the oil pump drive gear , i am fearing the gear is sheared or the pump has somehow gone bad (leaning towards gear being the issue)

    Report back , when you get a chance ... no rush , just get to it when you can ... 8-[
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:05 pm

    That is not looking good , its looking to me like there is a oiling issue up top , things probably ran a bit dry by the looks of it , you need to take off the ignition cover and look at the oil pump pickup and at the oil pump drive gear , i am fearing the gear is sheared or the pump has somehow gone bad (leaning towards gear being the issue)

    Report back , when you get a chance ... no rush , just get to it when you can ... 8-[
    So here is where I have questions. What evidence is there of little oil? The fact that when I popped the cover - there wasn’t much oil? I ask because the bike has set at least 1 month (more like 2) before the head cover was popped. Shouldn’t that mean most of the oil has settled by than? I ask bc to me it makes that that since my exhaust measurements were clearly outta wack.. that should add additional force on the bearing and cause it to fail.

    Next question - if I were to have a bad oil pump - shouldn’t I have seen more damage (especially in the cylinder walls)? When I looked at the other bearings they seemed to have an oil coat on them.

    Third question - just to make sure I understand what’s going on... when you say ignition cover - you mean one of the side covers, right?

    Final Q - what’s the name of the thing Ive broken? I’d like to get it in order now if I could

    Please don’t take this as me saying anything you are saying is wrong - I’m just questioning and learning for my sake!
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:28 pm

    That is not looking good , its looking to me like there is a oiling issue up top , things probably ran a bit dry by the looks of it , you need to take off the ignition cover and look at the oil pump pickup and at the oil pump drive gear , i am fearing the gear is sheared or the pump has somehow gone bad (leaning towards gear being the issue)

    Report back , when you get a chance ... no rush , just get to it when you can ... 8-[
    So here is where I have questions. What evidence is there of little oil? The fact that when I popped the cover - there wasn’t much oil? I ask because the bike has set at least 1 month (more like 2) before the head cover was popped. Shouldn’t that mean most of the oil has settled by than? I ask bc to me it makes that that since my exhaust measurements were clearly outta wack.. that should add additional force on the bearing and cause it to fail.
    /\
    What i consider "evidence" is the bluing of the cam lobe which means it got hot , partially caused by the bearing failure , but not completely I would guess , and mostly due to the bearing failure which led to the destruction of the part your finger is on in the picture , generally its a lack of oiling that causes bearing failure , or debris in the engine , you have bearing material in the top end , so you need to determine why its there , not just that it is there

    Next question - if I were to have a bad oil pump - shouldn’t I have seen more damage (especially in the cylinder walls)? When I looked at the other bearings they seemed to have an oil coat on them.
    /\
    Not saying it is a oil pump , I am saying you need to check it and confirm it is not the oil pump , and due to the fact that there was a reason the bearing and Rocker failed , usually that relates to a oiling issue , so that includes checking the oil pump , what i am trying to get you to do , is confirm that all related components are either working correctly , or in need of replacement to avoid replacing some of the obviously damaged parts , only to have them fail again due to missing the actual cause leading to the issue...... follow ??

    Third question - just to make sure I understand what’s going on... when you say ignition cover - you mean one of the side covers, right?
    /\
    On the left side of the engine case where you fill the oil and your filter is , that entire cover held on by the little bolts , is the ignition cover , inside is your Stator and Flywheel (timing chain behind flywheel), as well as oil pump , it is part #2 in the following link http://fiche.worldofpowersports.com/yel ... W/%20VALVE

    Final Q - what’s the name of the thing Ive broken? I’d like to get it in order now if I could
    /\
    What the part is called is the "Exhaust Rocker Arm" Assembly , it is where I fear the needle bearings you found in the top corner are from and why your cam lobe looks to be burnt (which is why I think there is a oiling issue , as the possibility of that failing is next to zero) , look at the following link , it is part #10 http://fiche.worldofpowersports.com/yel ... W/%20VALVE

    Please don’t take this as me saying anything you are saying is wrong - I’m just questioning and learning for my sake!
    /\
    No problem , just trying to tell you what I am noticing and suggestions I would consider being important to resolve your issue without having it happen again due to missing something , you have quite a lot of damage to think that just a part failed , I am guessing something else led to it failing , and that is what you need to make sure of , that once you undertake this venture , that you resolve the actual problem
    02 CRF450R
    06 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
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    Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:11 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Aussiecrf230 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:26 am

    Could be a blocked oil gallery to the top end as well, or maybe just that rocker.
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
  • OneWound
    Posts: 28
    Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:09 pm

    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:04 pm

    So I took off the left side crankcase cover (Ignition cover. I still don't know how you got that name Jim :D ). The plastic gear looks fine (see below). I did find two more roller bearings on the left side crankcase. What's the next step?

    Could exhaust rocker arm failure have been caused by low oil? I ask because I was running Amsoil 10W40.. and I'm wondering if the oil had been frothing over, therefore reducing the qty of oil in the bike? This is something I've noticed on two of my other bikes (on 1 bike I had to add an additional quart of oil!) when I've ran Amsoil...

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