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First allow me to say that I loved my KTM 520, my 450X,and do love my 07 450R.
I've had a great time learning how these modern thumpers work, how to work on them, and actually enjoy the prevenative maintenance.
The April 07 MXA has an editorial by Jody Weisel , who I am a fan of, that really got me thinking.
He was writing about how 27 years ago Preston Petty told him that "Water cooled motorcycles are not progress", and that "they will not change racing one iota over an air cooled bike but they will raise the cost and complexity of the machine".
Jody thought he was crazy, but now believes he was right, and so do I. What have we really gained, besides costs that keep people out of the sport, maybe folks who could participate if we had say a class for air cooled two stroke 125's and 250's,and why would that be such a bad idea ? The bikes could still have modern suspension and brakes. Maybe not exactly what I'm suggesting but something similar.
He went on to say "Thanks to the advent of the CRF150 the price of admission into mini racing jumped 25% this year alone", and that isn't the half of it, the maintenance costs will be jumping up more than 25%.
My favorite line he wrote was "since all sport is fueled bt discretionary income sooner or later,the pool of future racers will be reduced to the haves at the expense of the have nots".
To me this is unacceptable. Way to many TRUE greats in auto and motorcycle racing came from lower income bracket backgrounds, and in the case of Americans, most of them. Like Mario Andretti, A.J. Foyt, Dick Mann,Malcolm Smith, etc. What do we want, only spoiled kids from wealthy families being able to enjoy the sport, to give it a shot ? I sure as heck don't.
Something has to be done. The AMA is very much so aware of it, as a matter of fact I've been talking to my regional President and he says they are considering changes to reduce the costs of racing as a darn near emergency. They are meeting with the F.I.M. to make sure the AMA and the F.I.M.will both be on the same page, because the F.I.M. wants the same sort of changes the AMA does.
Let's hope they get this one right.
The emissions 'issue' of the two strokes are proving to be not at all the factor that was claimed by the eco-Nazis.
Remember that four strokes were going to be more quiet ?
So I'm keeping my 450R and I'm going to continue to enjoy it. However, I'm going to go look at an 07 YZ250 two stroke tomorrow or Friday and I've made up my mind to either buy the YZ or the RM. I'm going to race my 450R and for the two- stroke install a Rekluse and other off-road goodies. It'll be for woods and play biking, a Hare Scramble now and then.
A good part of it though will be nose thumbing. Just like when Clinton in 93 started in on "Assault Rifles", going for the total ban. I immediately went out and bought an AR-15 Doug

[mitchell250R]

my grandpa was a.j. foyt's racing partner

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my grandpa was a.j. foyt's racing partner

That's pretty cool. He had team mates from time to time, running a two car operation.
The stipulation was if Foyt's car broke down then the team mate would have tp hand over his car to the boss !
What years, and what was grandpa's name ? Doug

[Cantstunt]

EXCELLENT post! Considering the forum we're in, I won't agree or disagree, but GREAT post.

[gal8x]

Expensive is right. I had 10k in my pocket and my mind set on a crf250. When I saw it was twice the price of a 230, and the 250 was air cooled (me being old school) there was no doubt which bike I was leaving with.

Add:
$250 pipe
$170 front end
$600 shock
$500 piston & cam
$500 misc. crap
_____________
$2020 = one nice 230
I’m happy

[nedirtbikr]

Doug - I agree with Cantstunt...GREAT POST! I also take the low road of not agreeing or disagreeing. I guess it's a matter of "history." My son and I have just gotten into dirtbikes the past three years. We never had any of the "good 'ol 2-stroke days" experiences. 4-strokes is all we know.

So far, my "maintenance" expenses have been sprockets, chain, tires, oil. I have added stuff to the bike, of course, but that was all "choice" type things that would apply to any motorcycle. My valves have stayed put. So far, I've had great, great luck/experiences with my 4-strokes. Now...we don't MX and when we do participate in harescrambles and enduros, we are definately NOT high rev, high speed contenders. As we are mediocre riders, maybe this is the reason the bikes have been so good. They're built to be ridden by rocket men, but are stuck with a couple of pretty tame riders.

I wish I (and my son) would have gotten into this much sooner. I DVR all the Motocross Files episodes. Hearing and seeing the stories of all those old-timers is pretty cool. Looks like quite the crew back in the day.

[JAWS]

I have ridden and raced in the 2 stroke world. They were expensive (for me) to maintain when I was racing. Constant needs for fresh rings and pistons, rod bearings and the like. Hated mixing fuel and oil all the time. Loved the snap of the power and the lightness of the bike.

I have never raced the 450X, but I love not worrying about fuel and if I have a bottle of premix. The bike isn't that much heavier and I love the power band from bottom to top, including a bit of a 2-stroke like hit in the mid-range. The maintenance has been minimal. IMHO the impending valve issue (sooner or later)and piston is no different from the piston, ring , rod bearing, boreing and sleeving of the 2-stroke!

I don't miss the fouled plugs, the cracked expansion chambers, the puking oil out of the tailpipe, nor the smoke.

I don't hate 2-strokes, but I do remember the work it took to keep them going.

Good luck Doug and enjoy your new bike. I have ridden a YZ250 and was impressed with it. I did miss the chug, though.

Joe

[xman]

Go get'em Doug! I loved my 02 YZ250. I had it all set up for offroad and it performed flawlesly. Just pipe it, jet it and add the protection stuff and you are ready to rock. I'm still not sold on the rekluse yet though.

[Roady]

Jody Weisel , who I am a fan of, that really got me thinking.
He was writing about how 27 years ago Preston Petty told him that "Water cooled motorcycles are not progress", and that "they will not change racing one iota over an air cooled bike but they will raise the cost and complexity of the machine".
Jody thought he was crazy, but now believes he was right, and so do I. What have we really gained, besides costs that keep people out of the sport,Doug

This is the only part of your post I will balk at Doug. I guess 27 years ago, 1980, bikes were getting pretty good and reliable, but when I look back to when I was a kid and riding 37 years ago, we didn't venture out without a tow rope because someone was almost routinely towed back to camp. Reliability has improved tremendously over the years ... when was the last time you had to tow anyone for any reason other than running out of fuel? Maybe it was partially due to always buying used back in the day, but I don't really think so.

As far as 2 strokes go ... hell yeah, I look forward to owning another one ... every now and then my son and I switch bikes so I can ride his 125 pinned across the dez and he can play with the 450 power ... I hope they never go away!

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$2020 = one nice 230

That is one nice 230 you've got there. I guided a buddy through buying a 230 and learning to ride it, then ading on the mods until we've got a really sweet running bike.
nedrtbkr- we are a lot alike.
I've had really good luck with my four strokes, I LOVE this 450R and it's staying put. Every 250F I've ridden I've had a blast on.
I did have to do a valve job to my KTM 520 at a 169 hours , the weirdest thing one exhaust and one intake went south but it wasn't too bad.
A 150 is going to need a valve job after one complete season of racing, and almost all 250F's will too if we're talking regularly raced. For us play biker/occasional racer types they'll last longer, but even for us after a few years or say 300 or so hours some major attention wil be required, and being where I'm at and what I do it's no problem.
The newer two strokes are worlds better than what we had back in the old days. They burn so much cleaner, fouling plugs once the jettings dialed is very,very rare,you can start them with your hand. Almost every bad memory you can think of is ancient history,seriously.
The power is a lot wider even on the racers and they can chug through the woods for hours-part of the reason they are still the first choice of the GNCC pros. The weight speaks for itself, the new KTM 250 is 209 pounds without fuel but with all other fluids ! The other 250's are maybe 10-11 pounds more ,and that is a very big deal you can really feel. If you haven't tried a newer 250 2 stroke either KTM or Japanese motocrosser set up for woods try one. The Rekluse with that kind of power and light weight is a real treat,with a 250 you never have to slip and dump the clutch unless you are Shane Watts or similar.
I'm going with the YZ then will have Ken get me one of the Rekluses. Keep in mind though that this is my second bike, If I had to pick one to be the keeper it'd be the 450R. I love the thumpers for the same reasons everyone does.
It's the costs though. I'd have 80 's that were air cooled and about 2500 bucks for entry level racing, have the 125 's either as they are but with a class all by themselves, or maybe up to 200cc's to run against 250F's. Dirt Bike dyno'd the KTM 200 and bottom,mid,top and width of powerband mirrored any 250F-pretty amazing and why nedrtbkr loves their's(KTM 200), that bikes a great match of light weight and power characteristics.
I think I'd have either 250 2 strokes going up against 350-360 thumpers, or 350-360 2 strokes against 450F's. It'll probably be more the former, because the AMA wants to slow down the 450 pro bikes. Personally I think what they are worried about with the open bikes could be addressed by changes in track design. The other mission they're on is making the 250F's less expensive for the regular racers and privateers, because those things are needing rebuilt every week,or else they will frag they are tuned so highly.
You know, Formula One did something like every engine had to last 3 weekends of practice and racing,maybe that would cool their jets a little.
It's all just day dreaming and flights of ideas, but the AMA is going to do SOMETHING, and it'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.
By the way, I really enjoy hearing what everybody thinks about this, if you folks disagree on some or all of it let's hear it, every single person here either has or can bring up some good ideas.
Just remember, I'm a fan, I love the thumpers big and small and if my wife wasn't pregnant there'd be a CRF150R in the garage right now Doug

[Danny]

I read this post yesterday and wrote a rely and then didn't post it.I have been considering selling my R and buying a YZ.It seems to me we have taken something very simple and made it complicated.
I also read Jody's article and thought I don't want to go that far.
If you just price parts,2 stroke parts are way cheaper to buy, Pipes for example.If something bad was to happen and my bike blows up,what am I looking at to repair it? $1500? you would be hard pressed to spend that much on a 2 stroke.
I have always been a fan of 4 stroke and remember 1986 USGP at Carlsbad and the guy on a ATK,You could hear him all the way around the track,It was cool.

What is going to happen when they have fuel injected 2 stroke and it cleans up?

just what has been running through my head.

Danny

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I kno wwhat you mean Roady and I sure remember tow ropes too !
These two strokes now though sure seem to be very dependable.
What Danny said is interesting too about the fuel injection , because it's been disproven that two strokes put out any more harmful emissions than a comparable four stroke ,and fuel injection can have dramatic effects in two strokes, mileage being one of the big ones.
It seems there's some noise being made now, before they're really gone and I think that it's a good thing. What I mean by that is a lot of times until we don't have something any more then we miss it and remember the good things about the departed .The whole anti two stroke thing is all Eco Nazi related and when they get their way on one thing they'll move on to the next. Bike emissions are NO factor in the big picture, and it's as absurd as the ban on charcoal grills.
(whoever voted for that should be cooked on one).
Anyway whichever way it goes I had to have just one more, and from all I can read the YZ is the best of the bunch,the RM a very close second butthe YZ with the best motor by far for off-road and motocross, quite a feat to do that, Mine's going to be off-road, I;ve got my number one girl for the track Doug