CRF450X Starting Issues
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:37 pm

    You ever see the movie Joe Dirt ??? ......... well ......... , I'm JimDirt .... kind of where the name came from :-~ ........... anyway ...

    Does or did the oil level look low on the dipstick ?? , if not , then it should not have been a factor , most all of us run 1 full quart in the transmission side , but the engine we use the recommended amount , and I don't know of any failures related to running the correct amount of oil , so I would say , No , the foaming issue would not be a factor in this case , I run 10-40 in both my bikes , I have used Shell Rotella full synthetic , and Maxima full synthetic , and Amsoil , I currently have Maxima in my 450X and Amsoil Dirt in my 450R (appropriately named) and have never had any kind of failure in 12 years of doing so , let alone any oil related failure , it is possible that the rocker just went on its own as Ray mentioned , but generally there is a underlying factor that led up to it failing

    Personally , my "next step" would be to go thru the top end , obviously replacing the head with what you can afford , and maybe splitting the cases , to make sure all debris is removed , then replace the Timing Chain (a regular maintenance item anyway and inexpensive) , check the piston for skirt wear , if its under 100 hours , it should look relatively free from skirt damage with maybe some normal wear marks which would look like you took steel wool to it , nothing more than that , if it looks good re-assemble , or if you can swing it , put a new piston in (I would personally recommend a JE 12.5 or 13.0-1 at around $150) , and i would manually test the oil pump by removing it and sticking the pickup in a tub of oil and spinning the gear , it should pick up the oil and have resistance on it and pump out the oil relatively quickly

    You could actually get away with finding just a used tower which would include the cam and rocker , and you need to replace that regardless , then do what is within you budget with the rest for now , then later on maybe save up for a new piston , etc , but i would at the very least , replace the head , even with a complete used one for now , then plan on valves during winter maintenance downtime , and then do the chain , piston , etc , and look over the clutch plates and look at the clutch basket for grooving , and you will be ready to go in spring and have a bike that should last several seasons before needing anything other than oil/filter changes and a clean air filter every ride.....


    Or go the economy route:
    My main concern is if the oil pump is fine along with the filter , then at the very least , use a magnet to feel around for any look particles , then clean up the areas where you found debris , then flush the engine out with some cheap oil from the head down (pour it right in the top of the head , use a quart or 2) , tipping it from side to side once the oil drains to the bottom ,then leaving it leaning on the kickstand for draining (with the ignition cover on to fill with a few bottom bolts snugged down , then removed the cover to drain the oil so you get full flow of any debris into the pan) , if you do not find any more debris in the pan , then replace that tower as i mentioned and install the new/used tower reinstall the ignition cover , and with the tank removed and the valve cover just snugged down with 2 bolts , fire it up , then shut it off if all sounds good after 30-40 seconds of running , and remove the valve cover to verify the oil is at the top end , if its good , then tighten everything down , and go ride
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Aussiecrf230 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:55 pm

    Count up the number of complete needles (or pairs of half needles) and compare this to the new/replacement rocker bearing. Let you know if any are missing.
    Also prove oil can get to the top end and have a good check of rocker shaft to see if you can find a blockage somewhere.
    I would have thought if a oilpump failure the cam bearings and cam surfaces would be toast as well.

    Jim,
    Do you have an oiling diagram you could post up. Knowing where the pathways are would help with checking things to give piece of mind as it goes back together.
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:36 pm

    Here ya go !
    Image

    I can make a larger one if needed
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by Aussiecrf230 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:23 am

    So it is just spray jet for whole top end!
    Or am I missing something of the top of the drawing.
    Thought it would have been metered at least to the cam lobes where the pressure is.
    I suppose a little end is splash/spray and if the cages are open on the cam and rocker, the oil should get in.

    If you didn't ride for a while I wonder how long it takes before the bearings and cam lobes get lubed after start up.
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:03 am

    Yea Ray , the system relies more on pressure rather than multiple orifices to distribute the oil everywhere , as far as sitting , i can leave my X sitting for months and it will fire up and not make any dry ticking noises , as the pump is pretty efficient , so that is what concerns me is the issue of something failing like that , I still feel something is behind the failure rather than the rocker bearing just failed from sitting or any "normal" condition....

    I personally would feel better with the entire engine torn down and evaluated (it is what i would do if it were mine) , but if nothing is found to be a obvious cause , then the easiest/cheap fix is to replace the tower and hope for the best , but I would still make sure that the engine is completely free of debris before riding it or running it much
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:11 pm

    Yea Ray , the system relies more on pressure rather than multiple orifices to distribute the oil everywhere , as far as sitting , i can leave my X sitting for months and it will fire up and not make any dry ticking noises , as the pump is pretty efficient , so that is what concerns me is the issue of something failing like that , I still feel something is behind the failure rather than the rocker bearing just failed from sitting or any "normal" condition....

    I personally would feel better with the entire engine torn down and evaluated (it is what i would do if it were mine) , but if nothing is found to be a obvious cause , then the easiest/cheap fix is to replace the tower and hope for the best , but I would still make sure that the engine is completely free of debris before riding it or running it much
    WRT to loosing oil.. let me clarify. On all the bikes I've had before, I change the oil w/ Amsoil and bring it to within spec (its checked after letting it idle for a while). After I ride it a while (a few months) and I re-check it on the wim, its way below spec. I've never burned oil, saw a lose of oil etc, and after some research some people have noticed a dip in the oil level after initially adding Amsoil. Maybe there was only enough oil to get to everything but the rocker arm assembly? That seems unlikely however..

    What would have been the side effects of having a way out of spec exhaust rocker arm? I measured mine at .014.. and it is supposed to be .025. This couldn't have, in any way, damaged one of the needle bearings to the point where it wouldn't rotate all the time and give the ultimate failure mechanism?

    Regardless, I decided to measure the amount of oil that came out of my CRF. I was expecting to see .7L or thereabouts (due to the fact that you have to put .7L in :D ) However, after draining the oil and opening the left side crankcase, I saw way less than .7L. This started to make me wonder (along with past experience) that I may have too little of oil in the system (as I did not check the oil enough).

    Here's what I'm thinking as a plan of attack to replace things... since the head is already off; I'll continue the tear down to the piston. Unless I see obvious problems, replace the rings and carry on. I have the OEM cam for this bike (as previously mentioned, there is currently a 450R in it right now) and plan on using that as the replacement. I'll order a new exhaust rocker arm assembly. As well, I'll also flush the engine with some cheap oil to see if anything comes out. If I can find a guide on how to take out the oil pump.. I'll gladly do that.
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:05 pm

    Your scaring me with only checking oil every few months :shock: , unless of course your only riding it a few times every few months , you CAN go extended periods using synthetic , I do this myself in my X , but , generally I change at least 2 times a season , when i ride maybe 10 rides on the oil (as I usually ride my 450R every weekend , so the X sits a lot lately) , for example , i have only rode it 1 time this year , otherwise i am on my R , as i was today at the track , then again tomorrow and Sunday most likely , so my R gets a workout , the X lately not so much , my R with Amsoil gets about 6 rides per filter and oil change before I feel uncomfortable , my X i dont abuse as much as my R so its less frequent but still just a few rides more than my R , these engines will "use" some oil , basically when i see the level drop in the window on my R , or the Dipstick on the X , then that means its past due to be changed , which equates to about 6 hard rides on the R and about 10 or so on the X

    Basically , you don't need to change it every 3 rides like guys that use Petroleum oil , but I "check" my oil before every ride

    That said , letting these engines run low on oil is a no no , and most likely was the contributing factor in the rocker assembly failing , remember these engines don't hold much more oil than your lawn mower , but are running under much heavier loads and have about 40 more HP to put pressure on all those parts and bearings

    As far as the rocker arm gap goes , If measured right exhaust valve clearance is 0.28
    mm (0.011 in), decompressor clearance is;
    0.28 mm (0.011 in) + 0.35 mm (0.014 in) = 0.63 mm
    (0.025 in)
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:36 pm

    Your scaring me with only checking oil every few months :shock: , unless of course your only riding it a few times every few months , you CAN go extended periods using synthetic , I do this myself in my X , but , generally I change at least 2 times a season , when i ride maybe 10 rides on the oil (as I usually ride my 450R every weekend , so the X sits a lot lately) , for example , i have only rode it 1 time this year , otherwise i am on my R , as i was today at the track , then again tomorrow and Sunday most likely , so my R gets a workout , the X lately not so much , my R with Amsoil gets about 6 rides per filter and oil change before I feel uncomfortable , my X i dont abuse as much as my R so its less frequent but still just a few rides more than my R , these engines will "use" some oil , basically when i see the level drop in the window on my R , or the Dipstick on the X , then that means its past due to be changed , which equates to about 6 hard rides on the R and about 10 or so on the X

    Basically , you don't need to change it every 3 rides like guys that use Petroleum oil , but I "check" my oil before every ride

    That said , letting these engines run low on oil is a no no , and most likely was the contributing factor in the rocker assembly failing , remember these engines don't hold much more oil than your lawn mower , but are running under much heavier loads and have about 40 more HP to put pressure on all those parts and bearings

    As far as the rocker arm gap goes , If measured right exhaust valve clearance is 0.28
    mm (0.011 in), decompressor clearance is;
    0.28 mm (0.011 in) + 0.35 mm (0.014 in) = 0.63 mm
    (0.025 in)
    My apologies, I should have clarified. WRT to checking oil every few months, that's in reference to street bikes that have maintenance intervals between 4-5k miles.

    I'm not using this bike in a regular use case. I'm using it in an endurance style, where my ultimate plan is to run 24 hr events (first event is 1,000 miles in 24 hours on gravel roads). The point in mentioning this is that a ride for me (currently) ~300+ miles and it's unrealistic to check it every gas stop (due to it wasting so much time). My question here is if I check it at approx 500 miles, and add oil as needed this one time, am I good? Another question... I don't quite understand how I should loose oil when its not going anywhere (ie not leaking on the ground, or nor do I have bad rings, etc)? Does some oil get past the rings by design and this is just accepted for dirt bikes?

    As well... I understand what the decompression clearance should be, but I am saying I am .011" under the specified value. What I'm asking if that can cause enough "impacts" on the bearing to create multiple flat spots like in the image below, and its just a matter of time before one flat spot becomes significant and starts to rub.. causes bluing.. etc. Or am I totally off in left field with this hypothesis?

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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:09 pm

    Yea , every few thousand miles for these bikes is pushing it way too long , these are still "race " engines so to speak , and they require more frequent intervals that a typical street bike engine that is designed to go 40,000-80,000 miles

    With that said , yes you can do a 500 miles "check/fill" and be ok , as i am sure that is what they do somewhat in Dakar which these bikes can do , or Baja 1000 , but , letting the oil get low will cause issues just as mentioned , the fact that there is not a lot of oil in the engine to begin with , and overfilling will only cause other issues due to pressure, venting , etc. ,

    As far as losing oil , they do not lose it as much as they burn it from oil getting past the rings , etc , its not a significant amount , but due to the design of the engine they never really seal completely , it just burns a bit of oil and a bit of coolant , the oil level will drop slightly

    As far as the gap , yes being tighter will possibly keep a load on the bearing at all times and could be enough to prematurely allow it to fail , this is really the first one i have seen here , that failed not due to neglect , but generally when they do its a oiling issue , or rather a lack of oiling issue that causes damage like that , and that part got HOT , and most likely due to lack of lubrication to the bearing , that is the only thing i have seen that causes damage and bluing like that , there was some serious friction going on there

    I think you can do the race just fine , maybe give some thought to adding a Oil Cooler if that is the main type of riding you will be doing with it , it will not only help keep the oil from getting too hot , but it will also give you the added security of a little more oil capacity
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:09 pm

    Well,

    It's been a hot minute since I've touched this bike. Anyways, I finally tore down the engine to its piston rings. The pictures are posted below.. any concerns before I replace the rings and build it back up?

    Also: I think this piston is currently a Wiseco piston (see first set of pictures and attached box). My belief is that the previous owner went thru it and put "good" components in it. Note I have another piston (assumed OEM) in the second link.

    Other misc details: Yes, I will add an oil cooler. I'm also going to replace the radiators (they are buggered up) and add radiator guards.

    Here's the picture of the current piston/valves (box is shown to reference what piston is presumably in there):


    Here's what the original piston is:
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:34 pm

    From the pictures it looks good , I would have liked to seen the skirt of the piston , but overall , it looks like its not too carboned up , so that is good (only see 2 pictures not 4 like the description says in the first image , not sure if you were posting more than just 2) , but from what I could see , everything looks in good shape
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • OneWound
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by OneWound » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:41 pm

    From the pictures it looks good , I would have liked to seen the skirt of the piston , but overall , it looks like its not too carboned up , so that is good (only see 2 pictures not 4 like the description says in the first image , not sure if you were posting more than just 2) , but from what I could see , everything looks in good shape
    Jim,

    There is four images. I'm not sure what the technical problem is - but here is the link to the first set of four images https://imgur.com/a/NkYWE1q#k0tBwvP

    I took a couple pictures of the skirt (both sides)... also see the attached 2 images.

    https://imgur.com/a/SC3xQH3
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    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:52 pm

    Yea , I don't know why only 2 show up , are you separating them like this ??? (not real link , just showing how I post more than 1 image , I added 1 extra / next to the last /img] , so it would show up as a link in the post , so you could see what I meant) , my next post will be the actual links (same link just without the extra/)

    [img]https://i.imgur.com/3ruxUl7.jpg[//img]
    [img]https://i.imgur.com/3ruxUl7.jpg[//img]
    [img]https://i.imgur.com/3ruxUl7.jpg[//img]
    [img]https://i.imgur.com/3ruxUl7.jpg[//img]
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:53 pm

    This is how it would show up (I used the same photo and link 4 times , as in the prior post)

    Then it should show up like this
    Image
    Image
    Image
    Image
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • User avatar
    JimDirt
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    Re: CRF450X Starting Issues

    by JimDirt » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:02 pm

    As far as the pics of the piston , the skirt looks like it was needing the piston replaced , check the cylinder where the gouges are on the skirt of the piston in relation to the cylinder wall , make sure there is no physically touchable ridge/groove in that location , if not , the ridge at the top looks good in the cylinder , so yea , I think you would be good , maybe run a red or green scotch brite pad on the cylinder to clean up the carbon at the top (in a cross hatch motion like how the cylinder is cross hatched) , and you should be ok ....

    Are you going to do anything with the valves ?? , also make sure to replace the Timing Chain ..... ;)
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho

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