Lost Weight...Ride is Harsh
  • mossman77
    Posts: 316
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    by mossman77 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:47 am

    Race Tech indicates a rate of 1.5kg/mm for the pressure spring. Does the same rule apply for the pressure spring--stiffer will be a softer ride? If so, should I go with a 1.61 or 1.76?
    2007 CRF250X
    2004 CRF230F (sold)
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:01 am

    For the sag question , what i said in my last post is what you are asking

    "For sag , you should have about 55-65mm free sag on the forks for off-road , and about 45-55mm for MX (about 2.1 in. - 2.5 in. for off-road) , which shows your spring is too soft as you have way too much free sag , although keep in mind if your rear sag is off or your linkage is binding , it will haver a effect on fork sag , so make sure you have the rear squared away before worrying about the forks , remember .... balance .... front to rear is what makes a bike ride good"

    What that means is the rear sag , by binding or the wrong spring rate or anything else that transfers the weight to the front of the bike when it normally would be balanced or less force on the front , will not only affect sag in the front , but the ride itself , handling , and how the adjustments in the front work and/or affect the ride/handling of the bike overall

    The most important thing is to get the rear working as it should "first" then worry about what the front is doing , if the rear is off by either adjustments , or spring rate , or a combination of both , that will affect what goes on in the front of the bike , so fix any issues remaining in the rear , "then" move to the front , you can't fix the front first , its the whole package that needs to work not just one or the other , but you start with the rear , which is why so many focus on getting the sag set correctly (in the rear), it affects everything else

    As for the Pressure spring goes , softer will give a softer initial part of the stroke where harshness is mostly felt with square edge bumps/holes , etc

    The Pressure spring works together with the main spring in overall rate , but it works like a progressive spring , so the pressure spring works to help determine when the valving reacts , but , it also allows you to run a stiff enough main spring to keep the forks up in the stroke while offering a softer initial part of the stroke so the initial hits are less harsh

    If you can find a rate softer than the current rate by about the same margin i am at with my setup as a example , you will be happier IF the initial part of the stroke is whats bothering you ..again , the main spring rates both front and rear need to be addressed and ridden first before worrying about the Pressure spring , it is a fine tuning tool not a sole solution to your issues , the other factors have to be working properly FIRST , you need to spend time (after springs are sorted out) with the clickers and if they don't give you the results you want , then i would go with the pressure spring , but even then , only after re-valving as well , as those things will give the most benefit , then use the spring as a fine tuning tool if you still have harshness issues

    Ray gave some good advice , re-read what he said on the first page .. he knows what he is talking about ..and he doesn't ramble like i do ... ;)
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • mossman77
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    by mossman77 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:54 pm

    I don't mind the "rambling". Lots of good information and I really appreciate it.

    I currently have my forks apart and just measured the oil that drained out of the outer tubes (drained for 24 hours with cartridge installed). I got roughly 660 mL, so 330ml each fork. I don't exactly recall how much oil I poured in a year and a half ago when I rebuilt the forks, but thought it was somewhere around 375ml. At that time I wiped everything down real well so maybe there's 45ml lingering inside (seems like a lot though). Anyhow,what oil level do you recommend I use given our conversation?
    2007 CRF250X
    2004 CRF230F (sold)
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:26 pm

    Looking at my notes , i would say start at 350cc then go from there adding 10cc at a time (per side) if bottoming issues occur , but this will also stiffen the feel/ride , but i would start at 350cc and i think you will be happy , set your clickers in the middle , so if you have 24 clicks from soft to hard , start at 12 , both forks and shock (lo speed compression on shock) , same goes for rebound both ends , then adjust 2 click at a time , do only rebound (shock first),ride a section that has most of the elements you normally encounter in a ride (as best you can find in a short section you can go over and over without issues) at the neutral setting , then go 2 clicks in and ride the same section , then 2 go back to original position , then 2 out ,now ride that section again and see if you notice a difference ,(keep track of clicks so you know how far from base setting your going), and which way you like it best ,, then go to fork rebound , do the same procedure , then go to shock compression (lo speed) , then ride/adjust as above , then go to fork compression , this will guide you to what will work best where you ride , once you have it decent ,then the most you should have to do is 1 or 2 clicks for a given situation , like for example riding in deep sand , go stiffer on compression 2 clicks

    As mentioned once you do this , even though its tedious , it will save hours of frustration while actually riding
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • mossman77
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    by mossman77 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:35 pm

    Okay, but I've supposedly had about 350ml in the forks for the past year and a half and experimented last Sunday and found fully soft on rebound and fully hard on compression felt and handled best. Don't I want to concentrate on just the shock next go around and then revisit the forks again later (meaning install stiffer springs then start from scratch with the clickers?).

    If/when I get stiffer fork springs, I think I'll go with 0.5kg, that way I can drop to 0.49kg if necessary by mixing one of my existing 0.48 springs with one of the new 0.5kg springs.

    Although only 330 mL to 340 mL came out, I could have sworn I put something more like 375 mL to 380mL in last time (April 2015). Seems like a good way to get the proper amount would be to fill the tube with a set amount, drain it back out, measure it, and add more if needed to get the expected amount. That would account for any oil remaining on the surfaces inside the tubes. The service manual has a chart with an estimated oil quantity remaining in the tubes, so I can use that as a guide.
    2007 CRF250X
    2004 CRF230F (sold)
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:06 am

    Yes but if you've spent the last year riding around on the wrong rate springs for your weight , so that throws all settings out the window , you need to start from scratch to get a correct baseline as to what the bike is doing and why

    As far as starting with the shock , what i mean is the settings need to be balanced , you can't have the compression cranked all the way in on one end and have them in the middle on the other , it would be like riding a rocking horse , you will never get a comfortable ride , nor ever get it to handle like your wanting , so the bike has to be balanced to start with correct sag , or your just going to continue to fight the setup
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • mossman77
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    by mossman77 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:37 pm

    Just for my own edification, can you confirm/deny the following statements:

    Spring rate is too soft if...

    Compression: Fully hard (maximum damping)
    Rebound: Fully soft (minimum damping)

    Spring rate is too stiff if...

    Compression: Fully soft
    Rebound: Fully hard

    Spring rate is just right if...

    Compression: More or less mid range clickers
    Rebound: More or less mid range on clickers

    Fork springs that are too soft will...

    - be a harsh ride because you are blowing through the stroke too quickly and the valving becomes stiffer in the lower half of the stroke.

    - cause you to compensate with full compression to keep the suspension higher in the stroke and thus give a better ride.

    - not allow the forks to return to the extended position quickly enough which causes you to compensate with no rebound damping.

    Fork springs that are too stiff will...

    - cause you to compensate with no compression in order to use more stroke of the fork.

    - cause you to use more rebound damping because the fork returns to the extended position too quickly.
    2007 CRF250X
    2004 CRF230F (sold)
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:43 pm

    Basically yes

    Read this , it will give you a clear guide , and you can save/download it for reference

    http://www.mergeracing.com/tech/pandora/08-4.pdf

    and this should help as well

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... UE6cZUKKzw
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho
  • mossman77
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    by mossman77 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:07 pm

    I can see some crud in the base of the outer fork tube where the spring seats. Is it okay to rinse out the inside of the fork tubes?
    2007 CRF250X
    2004 CRF230F (sold)
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:48 pm

    Yes if everything is apart and out , wash it out (i use a solvent tank to break up the major gunk **i use Purple Power from Wal-Mart...keep it off paint it will soften it and eat it off** , then rinse with a Pressure Washer) , then let it dry (preferably in the sun) , then rinse it out again with a little fork oil to clear any remaining moisture , and you should be fine
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
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    Weiser , Idaho
  • Aussiecrf230
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    by Aussiecrf230 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:57 am

    Jim,
    The rambling is fine, I ramble I just don't type a much as I ramble. Stuff needs to be said and some times repeating it or adding that bit of extra info helps with what you are trying to get across. You only have to worry when you can't remember what the point of the rambling was!
    Or when people start calling you Govenor Gatling.

    Besides it is not rambling it is bench racing.
    Ray
    Australia

    CRF230F 2004
    C30F Power Up needle
    Mains 132
    Idle 45
    2 turns out
    Baffle out, Screens In

    It starts,it runs,it gets to where all CRFs can get to without the valve or valve plate dramas
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    JimDirt
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    by JimDirt » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:21 am

    Ray !

    If i rambled on here as much as my mind actually does , i would wear out my keyboard and my doctors in about a week.... :? :shock: :lol:
    2020 CRF450R
    2006 CRF450X
    Image
    Weiser , Idaho

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