[JohnSBA]

Hi all... its been a few years since I was active on the forum.. must say it was more active back in the day. After not having a dirt bike for many years after my last CRF was stolen, I'm retiring this coming Friday and I've made the decision to get dirty again, so I've started looking around for what to get. My first thought is a 450x, I live in Henderson NV, riding would be desert primarily, and I would probably put a license plate on it. 2019+ would be nice for fuel injection (after 30+ years of dinking around with carbs, I'm over it), but what surprised me most was how few 450x's I see out there for sale... for a bike that has been around a long time, and a strong seller, there just isn't any for sale. Might have to go buy a new one.

Not sure there's even a question here - maybe, if you have a good 450x for sale, in the south west US, hit me up I suppose, and although this is CRFSonly, and the 450x subforum, if there are other good options out there for consideration, I'm all ears. I'm a B level rider offroad rider, a few years of Baja riding experience, some motocross, California OHV parks, and 40 years of street riding. I'll be looking to do day rides, Barstow to Vegas, stuff like that.
John

[Back2-2]

Yes, the old 450X is still a very popular bike and clean ones really hold their value well. Tougher and tougher to find a real jewel but they are out there it just takes some time to find.
In my opinion, if you elect to buy a new bike - don't buy a Honda. Yamaha, Kawasaki, and KTM build far better quality bikes now than Honda. But for the duel sports, those are the best quality, engineering, and value for the money.
Treat yourself. You work your whole life to reach retirement, time to get to it and not mess around screwing with crap that takes time, money & effort to be able to enjoy.
Congratulations on the retirement - It is worth it and I have certainly enjoyed my retirement for the last 7 years. Never once thought about going back to work and I had a fantastic paying very interesting engineering job. Life is short - play it while it's playable.

[JohnSBA]

Thank you Neil; both for the recommendation to consider the other brands, which I will start researching today, top on my list would be KTM as I've owned KTM's before... but also your full fledged endorsement of retirement haha I'm truly looking forward to it. T-minus 5 days and counting.

Not surprised really that Honda has waned, its clear the 450x although a solid bike,almost a tank, hasn't really changed at all since '05 other than fuel injection in '19. Honda is not investing a whole lot in further development of the platform; you can make the argument "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but I'm sure the competition appreciates that attitude.

[Back2-2]

When you retire - at least for me, it took maybe 6 months to get out of work mode and get work out of my head. I was an aerospace engineer and worked with lots and lots of really interesting and pretty damn exciting development work. My final 10 years were all high-altitude turbine engine testing. Before that was fighter helicopter testing and developing the Predator drone bomber before that. Some it took a bit to get out of that mode. I have done more riding off-road and street than I ever did before being retired. It's so nice to go on the off times to the riding areas when I was in AZ. Now that I got out of that crap hole, I can ride anytime and anywhere with no crowds and have wide open forests to myself.
Best of luck on the retirement and hope it is very rewarding for you. Judging by the street machines you will be just fine !
I sold several of my bikes including my R1 to move. Slowly replenishing the herd.

Honda sat back on their asses and rode the red wave. They sold more bikes than they could build so why do squat to design better products. But that is not the real problem they have. Half, if not more of their bikes are not built in Japan anymore and not even the US. There built in India, Thailand, and even Brazil. Quality shows it too.
I worked in Kawasaki KHI in Japan on a project unrelated to motorcycles but got lots of first hand knowledge of what was going on and who their competition was. Yamaha, not Honda. Yamaha was the leader in all aspects of technology and quality. It shows also from the early 2000's until now that they really kicked it in. Not pushing the Yamaha line, it's just from an engineering point of view I certainly see the difference - Big difference. I would not hesitate to buy a Kawasaki either. But for me, Honda has not even been on the radar while I have been buying bikes this last two years. I rode some of their bikes while looking for bikes and was very disappointed. That said, my opinion means less than squat, and anyone and everyone are entitled to buy whatever they want. I just see it day in & day out here on the site of people looking for how to fix crap on their Honda's that should not have failed.
My friend I rode with in AZ had a KTM 4 stroke. Very well-built bike. EXPENSIVE to maintain, but a nice bike. Sort of tractor feeling compared to my 450X. Kind of like going from my Triumph to my Fat Boy. Both fun, both well built, but soooo different.

Again - best of luck on the retirement! Totally worth it !

[JimDirt]

I am sure Neil and I will disagree on this , but I would buy a Honda over a KTM or a Yamaha ... I have ridden just about every "new" bike out there , and to be honest , I have over 70 hours on my 2020 450R without a mechanical issue , sure I wear stuff out , like chains and chain guides and tires , but the engine and electronics , at least for me have been absolutely flawless , everyone says the Honda clutch last 5 hours , well mine has 74.1 hours on it , and when I do replace the clutch plates , as well as piston , I will be going with OEM , as I can't complain about stock components lasting this long while track riding ... my plan is to change the piston and most likely the clutch plates at 100 hours , other than wear items , which I consider normal maintenance items , mine has been the best bike I have ever ridden , hands down ...

As mentioned , I have ridden just about every brand , and most of the models of those brands within the last 3 or 4 years were each current models at the time ...... 2015 KTM 450SXF , 17 Husky TC250 (with a big bore) , 18 Suzuki RMZ450 , 19 CRF450R , 19 YZF 450 , 20 YZF 450 , 20 CRF450R/mine , 20 KTM XC 250 , 21 YZF 450 , 21 KTM TPI 250 , 21 CRF450R (a friends) and as soon as he gets back in town I will be riding his (same guy with the 21 CRF450R) 22 CRF450R that he just got (and he is keeping his 21 , though he likes how my 20 handles over his bikes , but he says mine is way too powerful for his 150 lbs. skinny body ) ....... I have not ridden the Kawis , but I know a couple guys that have them and have talked extensively about them with them , as before I got my 20 , I had considered other brands and wanted to be sure before spending that much money ..

The KTM feels like you are sitting atop a wagon full of hay , you literally feel like you are 6 ft in the air and teeter tottering back and forth when you hit the gas or brakes , and unless you weigh 140 , the suspension is way too soft and makes the bike real darty ... again , this is my experience , and too me it is just plain uncomfortable to ride , the Yamaha (I have ridden the 19 ,20 and 21) all handle worse than my 02 450R did , they feel like you are going to hit the dirt in every corner , one of my friends got the 21 Yamaha (YZF450 , not the X) and rode my 20 Honda , and sold his Yamaha the next day , and bought a KTM 250 TPI , then rode it and sold the TPI the next week , not sure what he has now , as I have not ridden in over a month myself due to foot infections and having to get some things repaired around the house , that have kept me home since the first week of July

The Suzuki is plush and has ok power , but feels like you are riding a full dress Harley , it just feels heavy all the time and has some serious headshake when letting off the throttle after opening it up ... so that is always sketchy , and the kickstart is literally 4 inches longer than the one that was on my 02 CRF450R and it gives me craps every time I tried to start it because it is up so high ....

The Kawi , to me , is just to flimsy , the plastic constantly breaks , and screws fall out ( I know a couple guys with them , and one ended up selling his after about 50 hours due to it literally falling apart while riding , I did not ride them , as after them telling me all the issues , I just decided to look at other bikes , though at first it was one of my top 3 choices (the X model)

The Husky TC250 , was completely different feel from the KTM , it actually felt ergonomically more like the Honda , where you sit on it and everything just feels like it is where it is supposed to be ... the power was very sluggish , more so than the KTM , but they both pull forever , and just keep revving , but it just takes a bit to get them going , they did both feel very light , and the Husky handled much better and felt Honda like while riding , I was really impressed with it and it would be my 2nd choice from my Honda for a track bike , though the Husky and KTM's do have a noticeable vibration thru the bars , long rides seem to make at least my hands go numb , and my buddy who is a KTM fanatic , even had real issues with it , my friend went to Fasst Flex Bars , X-Trig clamps and rubber bar mounts to get rid of the issue ..(this was for both his KTM's and Husky's)

The 21 Honda is much less torquey than my 20 , so much so , that my bike with a flywheel weight in Map 2 (mellow Map) feels much like the 21 in Map 1 (standard Map) but still pulls harder , it is very unbalanced stock , though , I know it is the springs , the shock is under sprung and the forks are where they should be , so it makes the rear squat like crazy and the front deflect because the balance is so far off , a 5.6 shock spring and dropping the forks in the clamps will solve this issue ..... but because of it the bike is real darty and deflects off every slight terrain difference ...... now , the majority of these bikes I have ridden are the MX versions .... so the off road models may be a bit more forgiving/compliant , though 2 of the KTM's were off road versions , and I disliked them both intensely and would not buy one if they were 1/2 the price they are (again , my observations riding feel preference and opinions) ....... and I also have a friend with a 20 Honda 250 RX , and honestly , he beats the crap out of that bike , he is a A off road rider and rides most of the Hare Scrambles as well as the Idaho City 100 woods race with it , and he is really happy with it , all it has is a 2.8 tank and spark arrestors , other than that it is bone stock ... , I have not ridden it , but I watch him and the bike looks to handle great , he is faster than his A brother on his KTM 250 2T ..

With all that said , I still have my 06 450X , it is still on the original piston , clutch , even the levers are original and undamaged ... I have about 300+ hours on it ..... I can ride from 2,000 to 8,000+ without any change except a slight adjustment of the fuel screw , I do have a HotCams Stage 1 , 3.2 IMS tank , Tubliss , and a opened up airbox and the Honda competition mods/adjustments , a 450R muffler on it with a Pro Moto Billet Spark Arrestor , and a fan kit ...

I will never get rid of mine (I know that does not help your situation) and I would recommend it even with the newer bikes , it is still solid , it can sit for months and start right up (Shorai battery) with about 6 pumps of the throttle and the choke and hit the button , and honestly , mine with a 3.2 tank weighs about 285 , but , unless you are trying to pick it up off the ground , when you are moving , even at 5mph , you do not feel the weight that bad , does it feel heavier than a KTM , yea , but the KTM does not feel as planted as the X because of that ..... Again , just my experience , your mileage may differ ....

Given a choice of any new "off road" as opposed to MX bikes I would go with (off road versions that can be dual sported) the Husky 250 or 350 XC or XC-W or EXC (4 strokes) , or the Beta 450RR ..... , or something in between , then the Honda RX would be a good choice , but not sure on dual sporting it , If you wanted a MX bike for the track I would recommend the 20 Honda 450R hands down over anything else out there same year or newer .... , I have found the quality , at least for the one I got , to be top notch , more so than any KTM Kawi , or Suzuki I have seen (my friends Suzuki RMZ450 is already in need of valves at around 100 hours) , and the Honda is less money to buy and maintain then the KTM brands , as parts for them are way more than the same part for any Jap bike

I wish Honda would make a lighter version of the X , as I would buy one in a second

If you are looking for a strictly off road bike and don't mind 2 strokes , I would highly recommend a 98 Suzuki RMX250 2T over any other bike out there .... simply the best handling , rider friendly bike I have ever ridden off road , it goes plenty fast , is highly reliable , lasts forever , and you can pick them up for about $2500-$3500 depending on condition and location

The main issue with "dual sport" bikes is you are limited to a few brands ... and none of them are cheap ..... but all I can say is ...... Don't drink the Orange Kool Aid ......

[JohnSBA]

This is great, thanks for all the feedback boys.

I can say for certain no 2-stroke. Also no R models, I live in the desert, and although motocross is a lot of fun, this will be a desert enduro bike that will see long rides primarily, so I need reliability over peak performance, so I'm thinking CRF450x, WR450F, KTM 450 XCF... along those lines. I will plate the bike, but since I'm in Nevada, that's quite easy to do. I'm going to go checkout a few bikes this week. Of the feedback so far, I've heard the common complaint on the KTM that it feels tall... I'm only 5'8" so although feeling tall is maybe ok, being tall is a challenge, and I'd consider lowering any bike a bit depending on handling tradeoffs and getting my feet down in the nasty canyon type stuff. I prefer great suspension over a great motor. oh, I also weigh about 190 (but hopefully in retirement that will drop down to more like 175...

I'm leaving 34 years doing software development for big tech in silicon valley; sitting in front a keyboard/screen for 12 hours a day over 30+ years takes its toll on your health, although it has been a very rewarding career. I definitely will *not* miss it, I'm so ready to do other things with my life. My focus will be health/wellness; better sleep and nutrition, massive increase in my activity level; My garage full of toys will finally get full attention; I love to bicycle, motorcycle obviously, hike/hunt, I have a wakesurfing boat (Supra SA 450) that is blast, and just love to be outside.

[Back2-2]

I certainly agree that Jim and I tend to disagree,,, But that's ok. Jim is the all-knowing around here and he can have that seat. We're both just a couple of old guys that like bikes, just different opinions on most things.
Jim, just make sure you secure the plastic bag over the grip really tight when you wash your "Dirt Bike", You certainly don't want any water to touch that electronics.... Come on, - really Honda! A dirt bike that is not sealed for water ingress properly. Really???
Chains & sprockets and guides that wear prematurely, you don't see that as a design issue? Oh yeah, I guess pro-level riding does that. Not some old guy on a dirt bike for weekend fun. For the average rider on weekend fun, those items should wear long and slowly. The only thing that should require replacement that quickly for weekend warriors is tires and maybe grips.

When I was working at Kawasaki, I have seen a test set-up that had a bike on a testbed that was getting blasted from water from every direction, hard blasting, I mean worse than torrential rain! The bike was running through a cycle of up and down RPM's simulating the bike being ridden. This test went on for 5 days, 24 hours a day to test water ingress! Felt bad for the poor bike!
Honda does not seem to know about that testing procedure....Geez Honda, get with it.
ECU failures, electronics failing, stators it goes on & on. Quality Honda was lost many years ago. Word to the wise - Absolutely do not touch any of the Honda bikes not built in Japan.
That said my 2006 450X is a solid high-quality bike, that will probably never be sold. I call it the last of the good Hondas. It required valves to be done properly to be right but other than that a pretty solid bike. Some design engineering that could and should have been better and the valve design was just poor. But I like it and it will stay in the herd.
I had CBR bikes that were pretty good bikes too. Last being a 2006. Moved on to better bikes after that.
Personal preference.
There are some really nice machines out there. Check them all out. Maybe Gas Gas ? I have had three GG trials bikes and they are very, very high-quality units that really are tough as nails as they say. Very costly parts and takes time to get them but it's really rare to need much. I have not checked out their MX bikes but suspect they are the same quality. I would not buy one of the MX GG bikes because there are great MX bikes made in Japan. In Trials bikes, there is not that choice.
GG has always had issues corporate-wise and seen to always be on the verge of or in bankruptcy. Many of the riders I trials with have Beta bikes and they also seem to be a high-quality unit. So does Montessa. But they are a specialty - like your Ducati. As long as a person understands that they are nice machines.

Good luck. Look forward to hearing your views on the bikes out there.

HOLY CRAP ! I'm getting as long-winded as Jim....that has to stop.

[Aussiecrf230]

Well you two have been through way many more bikes than myself.
I agree, if you two agreed, it would be pretty boring here.

Definitely +1 on the retiring thing even though not allowed to ride for health reasons. There is still tons to do or just sit and enjoy the view depending on what you care to do that day.

The only thing I can add is that KTM seats besides requiring long legs, is the seats are hewn the the best Austrian granite and probably explains why most stand to ride.

[JimDirt]

Yea ... its all good Neil .... My suggestion is to get what fits you comfortably , and does what your goals are .... yea , all the brands have "things" that should have been fixed before shipping out , the Austrians included ..., though I have not had the wet switch issues , but yea , a gallon ziplock works and is not a hassle to do , but most of the time , I skip it and just blow the switch off with air and make sure it is dry before trying to start it ... my rambling about MX bikes was just because around here where I live , there are more MX bikes ridden seriously off road than actual off road bikes , they just slap a 3.2 tank on them and go .... I have done it as well , and did plenty of single track on my 02 450R .... but yea , like Neil , I will never get rid of my 06 X .... it is bullet proof once you go to Stainless Intake valves ... and yea Neil , my X is on the original Chain Guide , the new R (plastic wear part) is supposed to only last about 30 hours .... so to me that means they changed the material , as the guide from 02R to 22 is the exact same otherwise ..... , but I can knit pick the KTM's a lot more than a leaky switch on my 20 .... but I get your point .... That is why Baskin Robbins stays in business ... everyone likes something different ...

And I don't really ramble , I just go into greater detail thats all ...

And yea , Ray is right , KTM seats are like sitting on a rock while riding ... my 20 seat is actually pretty plush compared to the Keeps Taking Money ....

I am fully content with Honda for Trail and Honda for Track .... ... And I don't know everything ... I actually forget more than I know if that is possible .... or maybe it was more than I thought I knew .. ... Who knows , I just turned 62 last week , so I may quite possibly just be senile

[JohnSBA]

Y'all are preaching to the choir re: terrible KTM seats. I owned a KTM 625 SMC Supermoto, and the stock seat was exactly like sitting on an over inflated basketball. Worst seat I've my rear has ever experienced. I'm scheduled for an in-person upgrade to my Ducati Multistrada seat at Russell Day Long on Dec 1, can't wait for that! I assumed whatever dirt bike I get, I would be replacing the seat, getting a bigger gas tank, and the usual other bits and bobs. Sounds like most of us have experienced enough bikes in our past that we pretty much know the modern equipment is amazing and comes down to personal preference; any deficiencies can usually be addressed with some DIY solutions and after-market parts, but it definitely helps a prospective buyer like me, to get your opinions even though I knew they would likely be all over the map. The last dirt bike I bought was a 2006 CRF 250x, so I've been out of the game for a bit.. I plan to visit my local dealers tomorrow, should be fun.

[JimDirt]

Basically like I said , whatever feels comfortable to you , is what you will be happy with (providing the rest of the stuff is acceptable)

Personally , I don't drink the Orange Kool-Aid , but I do like the Husky's , even though they are now mostly just white KTM's , they have a few things that I feel are better , or at least more Honda like when you ride it , if that makes sense .... but yea , 31 flavors for 31 guys , sometimes 31 flavors for 1 guy , one of the guys I ride with has 1 KTM , 5 Honda's and 2 Suzuki's ........ 03 520 exc for off road , a 95 CR250 , 02 CR250 , 07 CR250 , 07 RM250 , 18 RMZ450 ,21 CRF450R , 22 CRF450R ... and a Harley for the street , every one of them is really nice and all are ridden like they were meant to be ridden ... I guess he can't make up his mind ... and he has way more money than I ever will , so there's that ...

[Back2-2]

One thing just to consider. You stated that you were possibly put a street plate on the new bike. I have always had my 450X street registered in AZ & SD. They stink at on-road work in dirt bike form. Frit is that they are geared far too low. I added one tooth larger front sprocket which helped quite a bit without losing too much of the low first tractor gearing. I have since moved back to the OEM one smaller since moving to the Black Hills were riding singletrack is much tighter and technical than desert single tracks.
Other considerations are that these bikes need air movement to cool. Unless you install an assy. fan set-up like Jim did [an excellent write on it here on the site] you need to be always moving. But if it's just to run to the gas station or down the street to get to trails they are fine for street use. If you plan to really do any on & off-roading with it I woudl really look hard at the "X" model Yamaha. Kawasaki has some good true on & off-roaders too but the Yamaha really looks appealing.

[JimDirt]

Hey Neil , you mentioned the Kawi and Yam X models , are they not more like the Honda RX rather than the X ??? , I am wondering if a WR would be closer to the 450X street capability properties than a RX/competition type of bike , as I know a lot of the Desert racers here ride the X models (Kawi and Yam.) , and they are basically MX models with a softer suspension and a 18" rear and a kick stand and slightly larger tank (2.3 as opposed to a 1.5 gal tank), other than that they are pretty much motocross models , they are lighter than the WR type model , but not sure how slow they like to go as far as trail riding as opposed to trail ripping .... which not sure that is his goal , a friend that is a salesman at the local Honda/Kawi/KTM/Suzuki dealer had a KX-X and that bike was pretty much a KX with some off road options , he is now on a XC250 2T , because he said all the 450's wore him out on long or technical rides (he is a open class desert 30+ A rider)

I know lots of people around here dual sport the Yamaha WR models (not sure what Kawi has to offer in that dept. without going to a KLX which is not really that great on dirt , but is street legal) , , the WR does have a throttle limiter that you have to remove from the slide , but otherwise are basically Yamaha's version of the 450X , but hold the same flaws , like weight , etc. , I have not really looked at the "new" 450X , as it more resembles a new gen 450R than the old X we have ... but it is not snappy like the R and weighs a ton

I am wondering if maybe a Beta would be more to his liking , or even a Husky FE350 or a Gas Gas (they are even cheaper than the KTM/Husky/Gas Gas in price , but about the same maintenance price cost for replacement parts , but cheaper to purchase)

Food for thought

[JohnSBA]

A very good point about on-road use vs off-road use. In my case, I'll be 99% offroad; the only times the bike will see pavement will be leaving the trails to come to a nearby gas stop, to find a nearby hotel for the night on multi-day rides, and to exit my home to hit a nearby trail. I just need to hang a plate on it so I don't get pulled over and ticketed.

So I just got back from one local dealer, they did a hard sell for the CRF 450 RL model - saying that getting a plate in Nevada is a pain in the rear and expensive (my info suggests otherwise on both). Not surprisingly, it was also the only bike they had available on the showroom floor in the category I was looking at... funny how that works. They also hit me real hard on price like I was a 21 yr old Navy enlistee with his first big payday or something. $13,500 or so out the door. lol. Now I remember why I generally dislike motorcycle sales droids. What I did learn though is availability of new bikes is a serious issue, they hadn't seen a Yamaha WR450 in months, and only 1 in the last 10 months. So now its clear its not just about what bike suits me best, its also about what bike I can actually find. The Honda 450 RL is quite nice, but a few issues I see are: its tall (i'm short), its got the R engine/cam although detuned ECU still has short maintenance interval which is not good for an enduro/trail bike. All the street crap on it is overboard for my application, the handguards are literally a joke, tires are 50/50 street/dirt and would need to be replaced, and a few other annoying things that would need to be changed immediately.

[JimDirt]

You might try looking out of state then ... that is what my friend and myself did ... I got my 20 at JMC Motorsports in Washington (the ones that have the SX/MX trace team) , my friend (with the 21/22 405R) got his 21 at Motosports Hillsboro (Oregon) , and his 22 in Missouri .....

We have several dealers around here , but all want list or more and all are either limited stock , or ..... Pay now , and get your bike hopefully in 2 weeks (serious) ..... So maybe it might be worth your while to look in a outward fan from your location , till you find a reasonable price and the actual bike you are wanting , not settling for the bike that is available ... it may mean a day or overnight trip to get what you want and without paying more than its actual worth ..... I paid $8600/$9,063 out the door for my 20 , my friend paid about $10,100 OTD for his 21 and about $200 more for his 22 ....

Right now , I would say to shop around as far as you feel you want to travel , BUT , like my friend and I both experienced , if you see something and you want it , do not procrastinate , or it will be gone and you will have to go farther and farther till you find another ... both of us experienced that , and that is why we ended up in other states to get ours ... it is a sellers market out there right now as supplies are limited , and no real defined arrival dates for incoming stock , and most of the incoming stock is already pre-paid/sold , so it is literally take what you can get ... but on the same token , get what you really want , so you are not trying to get rid of what you just got because it does not suit your needs or do what you were wanting to do in the first place , and still will be unable to find what you want because you did not look hard enough for what you actually wanted ...

Its a tough choice , but right now , the supply is less than the demand , so you will have to do some serious legwork , to get something you want ..... and if you can ... do some test rides .... make sure before you bite the bullet that the bike you are looking at is really the bike you will enjoy riding ...