[matt2491]

I've got my '05 X set up for supermoto (street only, no racing). It's uncorked and jetted appropriately. I'm really enjoying the bike. At this point I'd like to try out a cam swap and see what that does for the power. It seems the '05 R cam is a good all-arounder (and it's a direct bolt in, no other parts need to be changed).

How does its power characteristics compare to the stock X cam? Will I lose any low end torque? I'd really like to bump up the top which currently feels a little flat but not lose any of the awesome bottom end grunt.

I had considered the '02 R cam but based on what I read, it's a real beast on top, which I'm guessing means I'd have to sacrifice some oomph on the bottom.

Anyone weigh in with their experiences going from the X cam to the '05 R?

[JimDirt]

Welcome to the site !!

First , i can comment on the 02 cam , its NOT a Top End cam , its all Bottom/Mid , all other years have More Top End , but Less Bottom End than the 02.....

I personally do not have experience with the 05 R cam , hopefully someone who has will chime in ....otherwise , you could PM Ken the owner here (crfsonly) as he can describe what each year cam does at what RPM
http://www.crfsonly.com/forum/profile.p ... rofile&u=3



As far as "best" cam , most people like the 08 cam for best "all around" power (bottom,mid,top) , but i believe you have to change the entire tower/rocker assembly to make it work , but Ken can elaborate more on that

[Leardriver]

I have done that exact swap. It is much better everywhere. There is no down side to an '05 R cam.

[matt2491]

Do cam swaps require any jetting changes?

[JimDirt]

As long as you are jetted properly for your elevation and temperatures you should be fine
, i run a HotCams Stage 1 in my 450X and i am jetted as to leardriver's specs (below), who is the resident carb expert here , if you go by it , you "should" be set

Jetting Guide for Main Jet:(pilot 45) CRF450R/X

Sea level....165
2000 ft.......162
4000 ft.......160
6000 ft.......158
8000 ft.......155


Temperature/Elevation:
One main jet size (up/down) for every 2,000 feet or 25 degrees in temp.

[matt2491]

I put the '05 R cam in my X and like it a lot. Of course, in the never ending quest for more power, now I'm wondering about the '02 R cam again.

I've heard directly conflicting info on whether it's a low-to-mid or mid-to-top cam. Which is it? I've also heard it doesn't idle as well as later year R cams. Any truth to this?

[JimDirt]

Well i can tell you from experience , the R (as far as cam goes) makes a great trail bike , as it has LOADS of bottom end and mid range power , the main issue people complain about the R (the bike/engine specifically not the cam) is that its prone to stalling and idling issues , the main issue is with the 02 engine and not so much the cam , the engine has the lightest flywheel of all years , so adding a flywheel weight or heavier flywheel solves the stalling idling issues for the most part , the rest falls into proper jetting and replacing worn carb parts such as Needle Jet and Needle , i also replaced the stock R needle with a NCVS , it has a better taper than the stock needle (same goes for the X) this helped with the idling as well

Now for the power delivery on the R cam , again , based on my own experience , is that for the track i had to keep gearing up (taller/less teeth) rear sprocket to "calm" the bike down and give it MORE top end , the stock gearing on the 02R is similar to the 450X (13/50 on the R , 13/51 on the X) i am now at a 48 to give me MORE top end , and take away a lot of the hit that the 02 cam gives , to me it feels like it is all bottom and mid range and the Top suffers from power , not the bottom , it is all i can do to keep the front end down coming out of corners in 2nd or 3rd gear at the track , i ride fairly aggressive and what i get out of the power output feel , is the cam is pretty much bottom/mid , and the top end lacks the power of the 05-08 cams , so comparatively , the 02 is bottom/mid , the 05-08 are bottom to top , but more so mid to top and not so specific in output range as the 02 cam

Again , the idling issues are more tuning/carb related and flywheel weight(not specific to the X since its flywheel weight is fine) , but its not cam related idling issues , i run a HotCams Stage 1 which is pretty close in specs to the 02 R cam , i love how my X works , and it stalls LESS than it did with the stock cam , which is also attributed to jetting/carb fixes i did along with adding the cam to give it more snap on bottom end

Hope that helped some

[Back2-2]

Slightly off topic - but how do you guys hold the cam sprocket in place to unbolt it from the cam ? I had my bike in gear and Held the rear brake but I suspect there is a better way.

[JimDirt]

I just use a L Handle Allen , and tap it (i actually give it a good whack) with a small rubber mallet to "shock" the Loctite loose(blue Loctite) , i do the front one , then rotate the engine 180 and do the other (cant get a direct shot at the rear because of engine mount) , i have also used a electric impact gun (1/2" drive) and a Allen socket , it does the same , then when reinstalling , i use the L shaped Allen wrench and snug it up , then torque to spec with a digital torque wrench and a Allen socket

Long time no see around here Back2-2 , where have you been hiding ?? , i was beginning to think i was the only one left around here anymore , besides leardriver ...

[Back2-2]

Hi Jim, I'm always here - just have not had much to say[ you always beat to anything I could possibly help on-you're pretty damn quick!].
I always enjoy reading all the topic's on what everyone else is doing. I try to learn things from others issues and put them in the memory banks for when my turn comes.

I'm doing the top end on my 450 - first time. So far it has went well and no surprises. I just thought there should be some trick to locking the cam gear to avoid any stress put on the chain or drive. I thought I would ask knowing you have had plenty of experience with these 450's.
Thanks for the input. Any and all tips much appreciated.
I did mess up a little - I did not have the bike on TDC when I started to dig in ? Hope that does not become an issue when I go to reassemble ?
I am still looking over the valves to see what I need. I thought I would need to do the whole KW deal with Ken but I have no leakage on the fluid test of all four valves.

Thanks again - sorry for the highjack

[JimDirt]

Glad your doing well , yea sorry , don't try to step on toe's , i just have a lot of time and am always checking out the forum , so i just happen to see new posts sooner than others , i "try" to wait to see if someone else answers , but usually if the post has been up for the day and no one has replied , i "try" to help (if its something i think i might be able to help on) , sometimes , if its something i am sure about , i just go ahead and answer , ....but , ...that does not mean that my opinion is the only one worth explaining or that matters , sometimes i am just guessing and hope someone else with more knowledge comes along and either backs me up , or tells me i am wrong and gives the right answer , so the person gets the help they are seeking , as that's what these forums are for , is to gain and spread knowledge , when i first came here , i knew nothing about suspension aside from how to change fork oil and seals , now i have learned enough to feel fairly confident in helping others , or at least try to help them , and there are times when i need help with things (i still suck at jetting , which is why when i am stumped , i tell everyone to PM leardriver)

I try to give out what little knowledge i have when i can , i am far from a expert on anything , i just happen to enjoy working on bikes for the last 40 or so years (i will be 57 in August) , i was tearing stuff apart to try to figure out how things worked since i can remember , which does not mean i know more than anyone else , it just means i more or less understand how things work , so i am not afraid to tear into something and try to figure out how it works , or how to try to make it work better , but there is lots i don't know ...lots...

I do understand what your saying though , i look at the forum and i see my name on a lot of topics here (not all but most) , but its mainly because i check the forums 10+ times a day , just to see whats going on ..... but anyway , to make a long story longer .....I wish more people had as much time as i do on here , i enjoy talking about bikes as well as working on them .....................crap , now i hijacked the topic .......

As far as being on TDC , it only really matters when your re-assembling , just make sure the counter balancer gear on the right side , and the flywheel and cam are all aligned when setting the chain (i push my finger thru the tensioner hole to put pressure on the chain to make sure i am not a tooth off before i put the tensioner back in), and you should be good

[Back2-2]

I feel all the info. and help you offer has been greatly appreciated !
That's what makes this forum so worth while.


Thanks for the tip - I may have some questions when I reassemble. So far, so good. One thing I noted was my gasket kit has a paper base gasket & the OEM was a metal. Is the paper going to be fine ? Everything else I have for reassembly is OEM. I have not mic'd the piston & rings to see what wear there is - just for curiosity. I have all new Honda OEM hardware for rebuild. I have to inspect and decide on the valves and head of what I need to do.

Jim, we are so similar it's crazy - you are a couple weeks older...

[JimDirt]

Yes the paper will be fine (Cometic Gaskets and Tusk Gaskets that i buy come with paper base metal head)

Yea , if i can't help , i am sure someone around here can figure it out , when i am really stumped on something i ask Ken , as he is pretty knowledgeable on anything to do with the bikes

I have a MX practice this weekend , getting ready for the Old Timers MX , in September , i race the 50+ Intermediate class (basically B class) hopefully my heart will do better this year than last year , so far i feel better than i have in 2 years , so i am hoping for top 5 , i will settle for top 10 (usually 30+ riders in our class) but i think i will do decent either way , everyone i have been practicing with thinks i will do really well , since i am beating all of them right now , and can sort of hang with the Expert class guys (they may get around me , but they don't pull away now , they have a hard time shaking me off their tail)

So i am happy with how things are going after 2 years of feeling like crap , i am finally getting back up to speed and just physically feeling better , so its all about redemption this year , so i have been at the track every weekend for the last 2 months getting back into shape , and have lost 10 lbs in doing so , and am hoping to lose a few more before the race , which is all better for my heart , i am hoping to get down to 200....hopefully but will settle for 205 right now if i can get there (209/210 right now after losing 10 lbs lately)


Anyway , enough about that .....and if you have issues , just ask . Asking once , saves fixing it twice

[Back2-2]

Sounds like you are doing great Jim.
I am nursing broken wrist from a trials riding mishap a few weeks ago.

Think I high jacked this poor guy's thread big time...



I should start a thread on my findings and hints - might be of help to others.

[JimDirt]

Yea , sorry matt2491 , did not mean to go off subject , and sorry to hear about your wrist , no crashes yet this year , so i have been lucky ...