[SnoPro]

The reason I am asking is I want to run E-85. To take full advantage of E-85 you need to run a higher compression ratio. If I ride out of range of my local E-85 pump I would like to be able to run on 93. After I change my carb jets of course. I know the manual states states you should run premium on the stock 9.0:1 compression. To me that seems like overkill. Don't other bikes run 11:1 on pump gas?

[turbo]

well me 450 runs on 95 at 13:1

[[email protected]]

The reason I am asking is I want to run E-85.

Please, tell us why in the world you would want to do that.
Honestly, it sounds almost manic. Doug

[SnoPro]

Why not it is cheaper and has 105 octane.

[massivemassey]

burns cleaner and doesnt consume natural resources, just corn.

[ChaosRider]

burns cleaner and doesnt consume natural resources, just corn.

E85 contains 15% gasoline, hence the name E85 (85% Ethanol). There are a lot of concerns about using Ethanol as a fuel. First, it consumes food to make fuel, there are a number of countries around the world, which are having food riots (as I write this) due to rising food prices. Some people in Haiti have resorted to eating dirt/clay cookies (seriously) because food prices are so high. Part of the increase in world food prices is due to the fact that the demand for corn is much higher as the result of Ethanol fuel production, so corn's price rose higher, so more people began eating rice , which increased the demand for rice and the price of rice increased, etc.

Then there are the concerns about the amount of energy it takes to produce ethanol, some have stated that nearly as much petroleum energy is consumed to produce alcohol as you get in alcohol energy. In other words, it's a very wasteful process.

E85 contains much less energy than gasoline and you will need more of it to go the same distance. Cars that use it get significantly lower MPG, somewhere around 25% lower. For example, one test showed that a car getting 18 MPG with gas dropped to 13 MPG with E85

Personally, I would love for E85 to be a viable answer to our energy problems. But, it seems to be increasing human suffering around the globe.

"In 2007-08 there have been food riots in Mexico, India, Morocco, Egypt, China, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Yemen, Guinea, Cameroon, Burkina Faso, Mauritania"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots


"Over the past three months the price of corn flour had risen by 400 per cent. Despite being the world's fourth largest corn producer and a major importer of supposedly cheap American corn, millions of Mexicans found the one source of cheap nutrition available to them was suddenly out of reach."

[124]

The reason I am asking is I want to run E-85.

Please, tell us why in the world you would want to do that.
Honestly, it sounds almost manic. Doug

We already discussed this in another thread. I'm not sure of Snopro's agenda here creating another thread to discuss it AGAIN.

Snopro - Dude....the compression ratio needed to make E-85 a viable fuel source is out of range for a dirt bike gasoline engine. Hence, the reason for the massive drop in power and fuel mileage of E-85 burning vehicles. The heating vlaue for ethanol is LESS than gasoline. You would burn more, lose power, and loss fuel mileage. If you want to make a 230 feel like a 150, by saving $0.20 in gas, go ahead. Get on the internet, do some reading...or for that matter, go buy some and put it in the bike. The worst that could happen is the bike runs like $hit.

[SnoPro]

What the hell you guys did E-85 kill your mother? I started the other thread in jetting because I did not get much for responses here. I agree E-85 is not a long term solution to our fuel problems but it is a good stepping stone to other alternative fuels like biomass. The ethanol production in the U.S. is not the cause of all the problems in other countrys. It has had little effect on corn prices or supplys and is not using any more farm land in the U.S. in fact we are loosing farmland to urban sprawl. For the last time you will not loose power on E-85 on a 230 you might gain 1/2 hp. And 124 how is the compression ratio out of range? That doesn't even make sense. Of course my bike would run like crap if I just dumped some E-85 in right now I need to change the jetting and that is the reasons of the thread. So can we please get back to the topic.

[124]

For the last time you will not loose power on E-85 on a 230 you might gain 1/2 hp. And 124 how is the compression ratio out of range? That doesn't even make sense.

...sigh...making sense huh? It's funny you talk about making sense.

That's what the difference in opinion is about. Not saying that E-85 killed my mother either.

From Wikipedia:
...One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E-85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E-85. Use of E-85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E-85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. E-85, 85% Ethanol by volume, also has a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) than gasoline leading to a reduction in power output in a gasoline engine...

Also, from folks who are apparently in the know about this:
http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showth ... p?t=154720

Some highlights:

--You will need to majorly rejet. 1.5x the current gas setup on the main.
--Even if you can rejet and get the thing to run WFO, -it is likely that throttle response issues will kill your desire to use E-85. "Alcohol flat spots" are what the guys call them. It's due to the alcohol's inherent ability to cool. Hence not burn all the way through the combustion cycle, AND diluting your oil in the process.
--Alcohol attracts water and is corrosive. In order to save everything from corroding and attracting moisture, you should run the thing out of ethanol and replace with gas after each day of riding. PITA!

But by all means, put ethanol in your CRF230. let us know how it goes in a year.

[Asmith]

Ouch...Buzzkiller.

[SnoPro]

Now we are getting somewhere 124. I agree with that quote from wikipedia except for the power loss part. The link you posted has some interesting info also. My original question was how much can the compression be bumped up on these engines and still run on pump gas. I figured if I could increase the compression a bit it would help it run on E-85 but still give me the option to swap back if to pump gas if I wanted. I realise I may be getting in over my head in the carb tuning but I want to learn more about tuning them. I don't belive that draining your tank every day thing for a minute but I am worried about the rubber hose from the tank to the carb dissolving.

[woodsman]

just try us and tell us how it goes, so we can say "we told you so"

[Aussiecrf230]

On a stock 230 cam I would not be going much over 10.5:1.

If methanol engines are anything to go by, compression ratios of up to 14.4:1 have been used, both only with very strong motors

Where you will find the biggest problem will be the requirement of a different ignition advance curve for a predominately alcohol based fuels.

Suggest you try googling up some info on this as well.

[124]

requirement of a different ignition advance curve for a predominately alcohol based fuels.

Suggest you try googling up some info on this as well.

Forgot about the timing advance thing too.
The problem is your working with a low output engine designed around low cost, low maintenance intentions. I would be cautious with increasing the compression. To put a max number on it is random. Too many variables to safely say "11:1, 11.5:1, etc" It's a crapshoot imo...

The draining of the ethanol and replacing with gas has a lot to do with it's ability to attract water. Corrosion is the issue.

[NCFRC]

Where does it say that E-85 is 105 octane ?

I've done alot of reading about the new gasoline blends and must of missed that one.

I'd run 91 octane and you'll be fine for either the stock compression, 9-1 or up to 10.5-1 .

Trivia -- ALL pump gas contains 10% ethanol today, it's just they don't label it at the pump because too many people would take it as a neg.

I used to work for a chemical company out of NY and they sell a product called Zoom , it's a great fuel additive and will make a noticeable improvement in throttle response. 1 oz. per gal.

I get nothing out of this , it's just a great product,,, forget the 104 crap.